Kassy Baker
Hello, Deborah, can you hear me?

Debra Milcak
Yes, I can. Hello?

Kassy Baker
Very good. I would just like to begin by asking you to state and spell your full name for the record.

Debra Milcak
Yes, my name is Debra Clare Milcak. It’s D-E-B-R-A C-L-A-R-E M-I-L-C-A-K

Kassy Baker
And do you promise to tell the truth at the proceedings herein?

Debra Milcak
I swear on a Bible that I’m telling the truth.

Kassy Baker
Good. Now you’re here today to talk to us about two things, or at least two parts of one thing might be a more accurate way of stating that. First of all, you’re going to tell us about your experience as an unvaccinated COVID patient in a hospital in November of 2021. And then the second part of your testimony is going to involve your experience using alternative treatments for COVID. Is that right?

Debra Milcak
That’s correct.

Kassy Baker
Very good. And I just want to clarify that you’re here testifying today, but in fact, both you and your husband were admitted. Is that correct?

Debra Milcak
That is correct.

Kassy Baker
All right. Can you just begin by going back to November of 2021 and describing when you first began to feel some symptoms? And I’ll let you take it from there.

Debra Milcak
Okay. My husband was the one who got sick first. He got sick on November 20, I believe. And then there, following a few days later, I got sick as well.

Kassy Baker
And what were your—sorry, just to interrupt, what were your symptoms when you say you started to feel sick? How did the illness begin?

Debra Milcak
Well, the lack of energy is indescribable. That was the first thing. And secondly, it became obviously that the breathing was hard to do.

Kassy Baker
And you said you began to experience these on what day in November?

Debra Milcak
Peter started on the 20th and I’m not sure of my date. I just remember the 20th because that’s when we had to shut down the restaurant. So that date sticks in my mind. And so I must have been two days or so later.

Kassy Baker
And at what point did you decide that your symptoms had progressed sufficiently that you felt you needed to see a doctor?

Debra Milcak
Oh, we had a friend that gave us—and I know I’m not using the right terminology for the, I call it an oximeter. You put it on your finger and it measures your oxygen saturation.

Kassy Baker
And what—

Debra Milcak
And Peter’s hit 60. And we already knew it was bad, but that was like, okay, we’ve got to go now.

Kassy Baker
And so your husband Peter’s oxygen saturation over a period of days or weeks was decreasing? Can you just clarify that?

Debra Milcak
Yes. It just kept on decreasing, decreasing, and decreasing. And at one point, he started seeing bugs crawling around the walls of the bedroom.

Kassy Baker
And I take it there were no bugs on the walls.

Debra Milcak
There were no bugs.

Kassy Baker
And so at what point, how many days later, after you began to notice symptoms did—

Debra Milcak
Oh, the days, yeah, we went in, I did initially think it was the 3 December, but I have learned since that it was the 4 December, and so, we decided to go to a clinic because we really didn’t want to go to the hospital.

Kassy Baker
And what prognosis did you receive when you attended the clinic initially?

Debra Milcak
Oh, we met quite a lovely doctor there, actually. She treated us well, and she did give us prescriptions for antibiotic and steroids. But she said that we really need to go to the hospital, that we were really so sick that, you know, she would like to know more about us before she could ever treat us for anything more. So I do believe she sent us up there with some requisitions as to different tests she wanted to have done. Some were blood tests, I know, and I’m not sure about the tests, actually.

Kassy Baker
And so when you went to the hospital, did they perform these tests?

Debra Milcak
Yes, they did.

Kassy Baker
And do you remember what tests were performed?

Debra Milcak
I don’t know. I know there was a blood test, and oxygen of course was tested as well. There might have been some x-rays. I’m not sure now.

Kassy Baker
And what was your physical condition like, other than having varied oxygen saturations?

Debra Milcak
Yeah, very, very weak. Very, very weak. We had to carry my husband into the car, and I had help as well.

Kassy Baker
So what happened when you first attended the hospital to obtain these tests? What were your interactions with the hospital staff at that point?

Debra Milcak
I think in the first, the beginning part was fine. And then I guess when they put us in the isolation ward, or an isolation room, I mean, I could hear the staff members talking about us very derogatorily because we weren’t vaccinated, you know. And at one point, we lost—

Kassy Baker
Sorry. For clarification, was one of the tests that was requested by the clinic doctor a COVID test?

Debra Milcak
Yes.

Kassy Baker
And did you and your husband complete the COVID testing?

Debra Milcak
I did not. Eventually, after quite a number of hours, I think early morning hours, my husband did acquiesce to having it done. He wanted a spittle test, but they didn’t want to do that, so he ended up doing the nose swabbing. Yeah.

Kassy Baker
Okay. So what treatments were suggested or recommended to you by the hospital staff at this point?

Debra Milcak
Well, they were giving oxygen to us, which was fine. They gave us, you know, antibiotics. Everything was fine. We didn’t want to have any remdesivir, I think it’s called. So we didn’t want that. And the other thing that they offered, of course, was the intubation for my husband, and that we certainly did not want to do, because we knew that the outcomes were not good if you were getting on that.

Kassy Baker
So if they were suggesting that he be intubated, I take it that his condition was quite poor at this point, is that right?

Debra Milcak
Yes, it was. But I have got a report from the hospital now, and when he went in, I think they registered his saturation at 74, possibly. And once they gave us the air through the nose, you know, that you often see in the hospitals just lying in bed normally, his saturation went up to 80 something, up to 94. And he was quite comfortable at that, so we were happy with that.

Kassy Baker
So you didn’t feel that he needed to be intubated at that point, is that right?

Debra Milcak
Not if he had the air, no. As long as he had the air helping him, absolutely not. Yeah.

Kassy Baker
Now, regarding treatments, did you make any requests for any particular treatment?

Debra Milcak
Oh, yes, we did. We had asked three different doctors for ivermectin, and it was quite odd, actually, because all three of them responded with the exact same words. And it was, “Ha ha ha, you mean that horse medicine?” And I accepted it the first two times, but when the last doctor said it to me, who was the head guy out at the ICU, I looked at him and I asked him if he was a doctor. And I waited for his response, which was slow in coming. And he did respond, “Of course I am.”

And then I said to him then, “You know very well that you have ivermectin in this hospital. You give it to lupus patients and rheumatoid arthritis patients,” and I said, “and probably other ones that I don’t know about.” And that’s when he said that they go with the CDC protocols, you know. And I said, “Well, we don’t necessarily do—” No, sorry, I did tell him at that point that he, being a doctor, and if he felt we could benefit by having the ivermectin, then he would have the right to give it to us. And that’s when he responded saying, “Well, we follow the CDC protocol. I’m sorry, we don’t.”

Kassy Baker
And just to go back, I want to highlight that this was the ICU doctor you were speaking to at this point.

Debra Milcak
Yes, and I understood him to be, you know, the high man in the ICU.

Kassy Baker
And had you or your husband, Peter, were you in the ICU at this point? Had you been admitted into the ICU?

Debra Milcak
No, we were in the emergency only.

Kassy Baker
So how long did this interaction at the hospital take place? Or how long were you at the hospital, is what I’m asking.

Debra Milcak
Pretty much, it was right around 24 hours, because we came in in the afternoon of the fourth, and we left on the fifth in I do believe the afternoon as well.

Kassy Baker
And were you discharged from the hospital or did you choose to leave? Can you describe the circumstances around you’re leaving the hospital?

Debra Milcak
Yes. Well, different doctors came and saw us. You know, I thought it was four, but reading the report now, I do believe it’s more than four doctors came and nurses and social workers and many people trying to talk us into doing the swabbing and the intubation and this. And they could see clearly, really, Peter did not want to be intubated. And whatever he wanted, I was backing him.

And so then they brought down a doctor from the second east wing. And she was willing to take us up there and I guess give us the same treatment—uh, not us, Peter—give him the same treatment that was downstairs at the ER, but that I would not be allowed to go upstairs with Peter, that he would have to go alone. And at that point, my husband had said, “No, I don’t want to go,” he said, “unless my wife can come.” He actually said that I’d gotten him out of another difficult situation and that he felt confident that I could, you know—he wasn’t going to do anything without me beside him. So, of course, I supported that idea.

Kassy Baker
If I can just summarize, I believe what you’re saying is that as long as you were in the emergency room receiving oxygen, you could stay together. And you were satisfied with that.

Debra Milcak
Yeah. But they did actually separate us for a few hours.

Kassy Baker
Okay, that you were separated for a few hours, but in order to continue receiving the oxygen, you were going to have to be admitted into the hospital, and you would have been separated at that point. Is that correct?

Debra Milcak
That’s right.

Kassy Baker
And what was your objection to being separated?

Debra Milcak
Peter did not want to be separated from me because, you know, we had already experienced several hours of them trying to get us to do things we didn’t want. And him being alone and so sick, he wanted me to advocate for him.

Kassy Baker
Okay. When you left the hospital, had you been discharged, or was that a choice that you decided you no longer wanted to be in the hospital?

Debra Milcak
Well, it was put to us that unless we went to the east wing and we weren’t going to go to ICU where we would get intubated, that they no longer could treat us in the ER—that this was the wrong place to be.

Kassy Baker
Okay, so when you decided— Pardon me.

Debra Milcak
So we decided, we said, “Well, I guess we go home then.” I mean, what else are you going to do?

Kassy Baker
And so what was your plan for when you returned home? And before we get to your plan for returning home, what was the response that you received from the hospital staff when you advised that you would prefer to go home rather than stay and be admitted?

Debra Milcak
Well the ICU head guy, to Peter he said, “You must be hallucinating.” And he just said, “No, I’m not hallucinating.” And then the other thing that happened when it actually came time to leave is I asked for the medications we were on, and the doctor said that, “If I don’t intubate you right now, you will die by tonight.” That was the head guy. That happened a little bit prior to what we’re talking about now.

Kassy Baker
And this is directed to Peter, correct? This was directed to Peter.

Debra Milcak
Yes, absolutely. Yes, to Peter. And so when we went to leave, I asked for the medications because they hadn’t given us anything or any prescriptions or anything. So they said, “What for?” And I said, “Well, we need them.” And she said, “Well, you’re only going home to die.” And I said, “Really?” I said, “Okay. Well, we did come in the hospital with prescriptions for myself and for my husband, and I would like those back, please.”

Kassy Baker
And for clarity, you’re referring to the prescriptions that the clinic doctor had prescribed to you, correct?

Debra Milcak
That’s correct, yes.

Kassy Baker
Very good. So you had decided to return home. What was your plan for treatment when you arrived home? What did you and Peter expect to do to look after yourself?

Debra Milcak
When I said to her that we had those scripts, then she provided us one bit of antibiotic and one bit of steroids, so that was fine. So our plan when we got home, we were talking to our friends while we were in the hospital, and they were working on getting us air oxygen, because the hospital wasn’t going to give it to us to go home, and they didn’t give it to us. I mean, they did relent about the other two items, but they weren’t going to give the oxygen. So our friends went about town trying to get oxygen, and they did. They got it with our daughter’s help, and we actually bought the machine, because it was better than renting it. And so when we got home, it was all set up and ready to go.

Kassy Baker
So you had oxygen available at home that you could continue to use in the meantime?

Debra Milcak
Yeah, we had three different varieties of it, actually. Yeah.

Kassy Baker
What other treatments were you hoping to utilize?

Debra Milcak
Ivermectin. Yeah, ivermectin. I mean, that was crucial. That’s why we’re alive today.

Kassy Baker
And you’ve already described to us that ivermectin had been requested from the hospital and refused, so how did you obtain ivermectin?

Debra Milcak
Well, I had a doctor give me some. Yeah. Well actually, the first bit, I hate to say this, but I got it illegally. It was in the black market. And I got human-grade from a pharmacist person. It was terribly expensive. For three days, I think it was $800. And then I had a doctor who got a hold of some ivermectin, the horse liquid. And we used that.

Kassy Baker
And what was your condition after you started using the ivermectin?

Debra Milcak
It improved. Yeah, it improved. I mean, we did use other things as well. You know, we have a whole list of things that we used.

Kassy Baker
Pardon me. I believe that you mentioned you are continuing to use ivermectin at this point. Is that correct?

Debra Milcak
Yeah. Anytime we get anything in the chest or something, we like to use it.

Kassy Baker
Okay. And how has your condition changed from when you started showing symptoms of COVID to the present time?

Debra Milcak
Well my husband didn’t die that night, and he’s still alive. He can still cook my dinners for me. So it’s doing, you know, quite well. It did take some time. I mean, he was so gravely ill that he did lose all his weight and muscle as well. You know, he looked like a man that would be thrown in an Auschwitz pit for dead, but not quite—you know, completely bones only.

Kassy Baker
On that note, I believe that we have a couple of photos illustrating your husband’s condition. Are those available?

Debra Milcak
Oh, yes.

Kassy Baker
We’ll just wait a moment here for them to appear.

Debra Milcak
Yeah, that was him. Oh, my goodness. I’m going to cry.

Kassy Baker
And so this was Peter. What day was this taken?

Debra Milcak
I think the dates on the picture, I think, is the 15th of December.

Kassy Baker
So at this point, you’d had COVID for nearly three weeks, is that right? His symptoms appeared sometime around the 20th of November.

Debra Milcak
That’s correct.

Kassy Baker
And this was after you had returned from the hospital by a week or more at that point, correct?

Debra Milcak
Correct.

Kassy Baker
Okay.

Debra Milcak
That was very, very scary for the first at least ten days, I guess. Yeah. Well, maybe even a little more, because that’s the 15th.

Kassy Baker
And I believe you’ve told me that you’ve continued to use ivermectin and that you’ve continued to see some improvements. Do we have the second picture that you provided to us?

Debra Milcak
Well, yeah.

Kassy Baker
So can you describe what we’re seeing.

Debra Milcak
I took that just the other day.

Kassy Baker
So, if you can, I think the dates of the first picture says December 20, 2021. This was again several weeks after you’d been to the hospital, is that right?

Debra Milcak
Yeah. Oh, this is May this year.

Kassy Baker
And then the second picture is just taken a few days ago, is that right?

Debra Milcak
Yes, that’s right. Yeah, with the December 20th. That’s right. Sorry. Yeah, because we got sick in November 20th. That’s right.

Kassy Baker
Okay. Do you have anything else that you would like to mention at this point that we haven’t already discussed?

Debra Milcak
Well yes. I read over the report from the hospital, and there was somebody—it doesn’t say whom, but I guess I wouldn’t be able to tell you anyway, so it just says the writer—who was advocating for us to stay in the ER, and that way we could have the air there and have the medications we were on. And then it looks like the head doctor—which I will not say his name because I don’t think I’m allowed to—in the ICU overrode it. You just kiboshed that whole idea if we did not go to east. And, of course, that would mean separation, yeah. So he knew that he was sending us home to die, as he said.

Kassy Baker
Well, we’re very glad to see that Peter— Sorry, I think we have a bit of a delay here.

Debra Milcak
Yeah. Sorry.

Kassy Baker
Please continue your thought.

Debra Milcak
Yeah we do. That’s fine. I think I said it all.

Kassy Baker
Well, we’re very glad that both you and Peter have recovered at this point so well. I think that concludes my questions, but do we have any questions from the commissioners? It looks like we don’t. So on behalf of the National Citizens Inquiry, we’d like to thank you very much for your time and for your testimony here today.

Debra Milcak
Well, thank you, and letting me tell my story.

Credentials

Debra Milcak is a courageous and determined individual who faced a challenging health crisis alongside her husband Peter in November 2021. As restaurant owners, they had to shut down their business when they fell ill with COVID-19. Despite facing criticism for being unvaccinated, Debra remained steadfast in her beliefs and advocated for her and her husband’s right to choose their preferred medical treatments. Her experience has led her to become a vocal proponent of alternative COVID-19 treatments, particularly ivermectin, which she believes played a crucial role in their recovery.

Summary

Debra Milcak testifies about her and her husband Peter’s experience with COVID-19 in November 2021. She describes the onset of symptoms, including extreme fatigue and difficulty breathing. After monitoring their oxygen levels at home, they decided to seek medical attention when Peter’s oxygen saturation dropped to 60%. Initially visiting a clinic, they were referred to a hospital for further treatment.

At the hospital, Debra recounts their interactions with staff, including derogatory comments about their unvaccinated status. They received oxygen and antibiotics but refused Remdesivir and intubation. Debra describes requesting ivermectin from multiple doctors, all of whom dismissed it as “horse medicine.” After about 24 hours in the hospital, they were faced with the decision to either be separated for further treatment or leave.

Choosing to return home, Debra explains their plan to continue treatment, including obtaining oxygen equipment and sourcing ivermectin through alternative means. She credits ivermectin, along with other treatments, for their recovery. Debra provides before and after photos of Peter, showcasing his dramatic weight loss during illness and subsequent recovery.

Throughout her testimony, Debra emphasizes their right to choose their preferred treatments and expresses frustration with the hospital’s refusal to provide requested medications. She concludes by noting that despite being told they were “going home to die,” both she and Peter have recovered and continue to use ivermectin when needed.